Tuesday 27 January 2009

TICAP Tuesday 27th January


The delegates are all here. The room is full and the top table are preparing to start proceedings.

I'll try to put salient points and events here throughout the two days.

09:30 Godfrey Bloom MEP begins by having a swipe at the EU for not allowing the conference to take place over at the EU building. He said they like to think the debate is over. He is surprised not to see FOREST here and would like to know what was more important than being here today.

He goes on to say he finds it a "gross infringement of human liberty" that a business owner isn't able to choose the smoking policy in his own establishment. He blasts the EU again for picking and choosing which minorities they care to protect.

09:45 Gian Turci rises to speak. He starts by giving a rundown of the WHO policy of denormalisation of smokers, and the strict rules they give on listening to the tobacco industry on any issue, and contrasting with the rules that apply to pharmaceutical companies.

09:55 Gian says the authorities have issued a declaration of war on one set of values in favour of another. He calls for more action to fight those who believe personal health is the concern of the Government. He says "to kill the beast, one must become a beast"

Gian Turci: When personal health is equated with freedom, liberty vanishes as a political concept


10:00 Barrie Craven of the University of Newcastle rises to talk of the effects of smoking bans on business. He refers to findings in his paper that is referenced here. Topics included bans being "after the fact" due to businesses changing prior to the ban, bans being discriminatory to the lower classes, both men and women. Plus, the erosion of social cohesion. He described the creative methodology of using aggregated financial evidence to 'prove' that bans don't harm business, and explains how the science used to influence politicians was 'impure' due to the press "bias against known hypothesis"

10:20 Jan Snel (pictured) rises and is giving a powerpoint presentation of "Damage to mental health by smoking bans"


Jan Snel: Smoking is not just taking nicotine, it is pleasure


Very technical psychological stuff this. Jan is explaining how smoking stimulates pleasure sensors, and increases cognitive function. Restricting or withdrawing smoking can, in certain circumstances, cause depression.

10:37 Jan draws comparisons with the treatment of alcohol. He points out that alcohol guidelines are "2 glasses per day in Sweden, but 7 in the Basque regions."

10:45 Coffee Break. Questions and ansers next at 11:15 so if you wish to ask anything of the panel, please post something on the comments.

11:15am QUESTIONS

Gawain Towler MEP (UKIP) begins by answering a question from Nick Hogan on the events surrounding the cancellation of the EU building as a venue.

Mr Towler explained in depth about the shenanigans (thought to have originated with an Irish MEP), and said that he has been advised by the Ombudsman that they have a very good case for geting compensation for the extra funds expended on staging TICAP at another venue.

More questions follow about the cancellation. Frederique DuPont (France) asks a searching one about a certain MEP and says "it is horrible". Mr Towler replies.

"Come with me to the EU building tomorrow and I will show you LOTS of horrible people"


Just to quickly list a few groups I have seen so far. USA, Canada, Belgium, Austria, Germany, UK. I have no doubt missed some as I have been busy typing and listening at the same time, but will update later.

Visigoth from F2C has a rant about the expenses getting to the conference and asking who to claim it back from. Godfrey Bloom suggests he send a letter to Caroline Flint, which draws a few chuckles.

Jan Snel answers ChrisB's question. He says that studies have been undertaken on monkeys and it was found that social isolation at a young age resulted in the monkeys developing without the full set of social skills. Jan said that in older age, it can have "a devastating effect on well-being"

The Austrian delegation prior to that had asked a question about Champix and its deletorious effect on mental health.

Judith M asks about the lack of impartial press coverage. Godfrey Bloom, being parochial, explains that the BBC (who have taken a £100m loan from the EU bank) and Sky (by way of licensing), are both compromised in different ways.

A question about possible allies in the EU. Being parochial again, Godfrey Bloom replies that there are a few staunchly libertarian Tory MEPs but the EU is generally very unsympathetic. The best thing we can do to hurt them and make them change is to get rid of them at the ballot box. And to write stating that if they don't consider your views, you will actively campaign against them.

A question about why tobacco companies don't help. Gian Turci fields it saying that in the US it is mostly down to the Master Settlement Agreement, also, even tobacco companies are now staffed by people who believe the science fraud. He suggests it is a waste of time talking to them.

From the floor, the delegate from Quebec, Canada, adds that bans don't decrease tobacco sales, so it's not in their interest to object.

Maryetta Ables from the floor, reminds the conference that by excluding tobacco companies, and as such, tobacco users, from lobbying, politicians are threatening national sovereignty by stifling democratic debate.

Barrie Craven answering a question on 'smoking licences' for pubs from a Forces Germany attendee. He says that the more you restrict licences, the more valuable they become and unintended consequences result. He believes this should be resisted as the market, given time, can handle the issue adequately by itself.

Pat Nurse (Press) asks why freedom of speech for smokers is not protected by the EU under Human Rights legislation. Godfrey Bloom refers to EU Referenda (ie Ireland) and says they use legislation selectively as they see fit.

Godfrey Bloom: "You must never mistake this place as a place of serious democratic process"


Gian Turci fielded Chris Cyrnik's question. He said that the pro-choice lobby is "systematically underfunded", as it is just individuals. Media rely on money and advertisers tend to call the shots, which is probably why they don't pick up on the story. The radio stations that do pick it up are the small, independent type that either don't need sponsors, or the sponsors, by objecting, don't threaten the profitability of the broadcaster. He said the only way for this to happen would be if we set up our own multimedia organisation, but the cost is prohibitive.

12:45: Nick Hogan giving a rousing polemic at the moment.

Nick Hogan: A library is a public place, a hospital is a public place. But don't call my premises a public place, or any other private premises, because they are not


Nick Hogan: We allowed this in by stealth. This is not the end, it is the beginning ...


Breaking for lunch now. Phew!

Moving to a new blog post now as this is becoming unwieldy.

45 comments:

  1. All the best to everyone attending.
    Get yourselves noticed.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Thanks for the update. Glad to see that the event is in progress after all the underhand tactics by the authorities to cancel it.
    Enjoy your coffee.
    Great to hear that the room is full. This issue is obviously of concern to many across the globe

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  3. I echo the sentiments of the posters above. Is there much media cover, especially from the UK?

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  4. The social venues for many, especially the elderly, smokers and non-smokers have closed.
    Often forgotten are the ex-patrons of closed social venues such as the little cafe where they rested whilst shopping or the local bingo club where once or twice a week they socialized with their friends. What is the likely effect of isolation on the health of these forgotten people?

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  5. Great to hear how Barry explained about the 'creative methodology' and 'impure science' that was used to influence our politicians. Are there many MPs/MEPs there to hear the truth about how they've been hoodwinked by the vested interests of the anti-smoking industry?

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  6. I'l try to get that question asked ChrisB.

    Helen. Gawain Towler UKIP MEP, is talking at the moment. Godfrey Bloom is here too, of course. Will try to give you more when I get a moment. Good representation from around the world though.

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  7. That's good to hear Dick. Afterall this is a global issue - thanks for the update.

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  8. I note you mention Avril Doyle. It would be good for her to be there. To be an effective politician you have to be capable of listening to both sides of an argument and not just the side that you agree with.
    Something that is severly lacking in many UK MPs/MEPs (not all) at the moment with regard to this subject

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  9. Hi Dick,
    Can you ask if there is a Press Release being issued from the conference today.

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  10. I think I can answer that Nick, there is a press conference scheduled for tomorrow afternoon and a press release will no doubt follow.

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  11. Nick Hogan just confirmed that a press release will be issued tomorrow

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  12. Hello Dick,
    I am relying on the MEPs of London to investigate on my behalf why freedom of speech is being denied and to ask searching questions in the European parliament as to why a director of the Smoke Free Partnership with no evidence can halt legitimate debate.

    Out of the 9 MEPs Contacted I have only had a reply from one Mr Gerard Batten UKIP MEP.

    First of all I am appalled at the lack of response, can anyone advise who I can complain to about the lack of replies and their unaccountability.?

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  13. Further to my post regarding lack of response, can it be noted in the conference minutes that our elected MEP representatives are failing to respond to fair and reasonable requests to investigate the oppression of free speech.?

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  14. Hi Dick,
    I hope that special mention is made of the UK Media's lack of coverage leading up to this conference.It is " Censorship through Silence"

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  15. Hello Dick

    Can you ask whether it would be worth establishing a fighting fund for any possible legal challenges.

    And what about the media...would it ever be possible to persuade programme producers to make a programme exposing the 'passive smoking'myths.

    We need media exposure!

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  16. B7: Godfrey Bloom touched on this in an earlier answer. He said, in his experience, a physical letter is better than an e-mail. He had mentioned that one must persevere and continue to threaten the MEPs (and MPs) with loss of their jobs via the bllot box.

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  17. Thanks Dick - good work! Are there any antis around or people who just seem interested in hearing the other side of the argument or is everyone just preaching to the converted?

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  18. Pat Nurse mentioned that, Nick. Godfrey Bloom replied that journalists he has spoken to reply that they won't cover the debate because "smoking kills thousands" etc. He said that anyone who says this doesn't belong in political journalism.

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  19. I'll try to get that in Chris, but running out of time and lots of hands.

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  20. We're off to lunch now. James, no sign of antis yet.

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  21. Hi Dick
    As a sufferer of depression that has become worse since the announcement of the total smoking ban, I would be very interested in anything relating to Jan's presentation on the subject of depression.

    The psychiatrist I see has also said they are being stretched to the absolute limits due to the smoking ban and they struggled before!

    I have also just lost my job due to being a smoker!

    Keep up the great work and thanks from one who can't be there.

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  22. Best wishes to all and thanks to UKIP for sponsoring our right to free speech.

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  23. Any cuts in services as a result of the Global

    Recession should be aimed at "Tobacco Control"

    and " Smoking Cessation " hangers on rather

    than Front Line services.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Dick you are doing a marvelous job keeping us informed, and you even have pics too! Is the conference well attended? I believe that the conference room can only hold 150 people, have we got that many attendees? And finally tell Visigoth (Barry Connaughton) that I'll remunerate him at our next meeting (F2C Northern England,) well I'll buy him a pint anyway.

    I'm raising a glass to the success of the conference, first drink for a while now, HONEST!

    Respect
    TBY

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  25. Dick,
    Many thanks for this - very informative!

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  26. "handymanphil asks" :-
    Enstrom/Kabat, Wu/Williams, the WHO & our own H&S found infitesimal or nil damage caused by SHS. How do we stop this gov't relying/using the SCOTH report (which stated there is no safe level of SHS) which was so obviously corrupt simply by virtue of Prof Jarvis and his fellow anti's dominating the committee to engineer the result required by gov't!

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  27. The last minute attempt by the antismoking lobby to destroy this conference was morally and democratically reprehensible, as well as, hopefully, being legally actionable. The fear of open discussion and debate shown by those who supposedly have objective science on their side is the clearest public evidence possible that their scientific support is not only weak but quite clearly vulnerable to attack if questioned in an organized fashion.

    The world community, not just of smokers but also of the many nonsmokers whose lives and livelihoods have also been disrupted by the antismoking movement, owes a debt of thanks to the IndDems who stepped in on just a few days notice to provide a venue for this international gathering.

    Chris Snowdon's point about the roles of David and Goliath being reversed is quite accurate, but I would like to take it a step further. The Goliath of the euphemistically titled "Tobacco Control" movement, annually funded with hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes on those it seeks to "Control," is deathly afraid that eventually one small stone will sneak through its defenses and find a path to a vulnerable spot on its clearly exposed forehead.

    When that happens, and the Goliath is brought to its knees with its lies exposed in a way that can't be hidden, the mob will swarm and its time will be over. Here in America we had our "Great Prohibition Experiment" that built for many decades, reigned for almost two, and eventually collapsed in such disgrace that it took the better part of a hundred years for it to even begin to recover. As Professor Jeremy Richards of the University of Georgia has pointed out, we are now in the midst of a second "Great Experiment" that will, just like its predecessor, eventually collapse of its own lies and the social disruption they have caused.

    TICAP may or may not prove to be that stone that finds its way, but from what I see here on this blog today it's certainly a grand attempt. I wish I could have been there for it, but perhaps next time... and perhaps next time we'll be discussing how to pick up the pieces and mend the disaster of a failed Experiment after its final disintegration.

    Congratulations to all and many thanks indeed to those who stepped in to stop the Antismokers' desperate and despicable attack on free thought and free choice.


    Michael J. McFadden
    Author of Dissecting Antismokers' Brains
    Mid-Atlantic Director, Citizens Freedom Alliance, Inc.
    Director, Pennsylvania Smokers' Action Network (PASAN) http://pasan.TheTruthIsALie.com

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  28. And many, MANY thanks to Dick Puddlecote for setting this blog coverage up!

    - MJM

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  29. Thanks for setting this blog up. It is helping to keep us who couldn't attend up to date with what is happening. I do hope we will get some extensive media coverage & that the attempted blocking of free speech by the EU is mentioned. Today seems to have gone well, good luck guys for tomorrow. Hope JudithM is behaving LOL.
    NoBanJan

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  30. I've started to post on the new blog now showing the afternoon's proceedings:
    http://ticaplive.blogspot.com/2009/01/ticap-27th-january-pm.html

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  31. M.Gorbachev was puzzled by the apparent determintion of Western European leaders to recreate the Soviet Union via the EU.
    Why recreate a control freak society that failed ?
    Why?

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  32. Thanks for setting up this blog and thankyou UKIP.

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  33. Wish I could be there. Thanks to all who are standing up not only for themselves, but for all of us normal folk who couldn't attend!

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  34. I meant "common"(people with a lack of $$) folk, not necessarily "normal"..hehe...I'm far from "normal" actually..

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  35. At the next question and answer session ask this, if it's not too much of a rant:

    I am an ordinary working class man who smokes, eats junk food occasionally and drinks alcohol...why am I hated so much because of my lifestyle choices? Does my choices not add money to the exchequer? I expect my taxes to go to the needy and help those more unfortunate than myself but now I have to think "where does the tax on my burger go, where does the tax on my pint of beer go?" Why is my tax money being used to fund people who hate me for buying these legal products, but most important to me is, why do governments use SMOKERS MONEY to treat me like the new Juden, although not exterminated like they did in Nazi Germany in the 30s and 40s I still feel as If I'm being treated as the antichrist because I don't conform to the heathist ideal...

    I guess what I am asking is...WHY!

    John H Baker aka TheBigYin

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  36. Rollo - 'Passive smoking is estimated to cause around 11,000 premature deaths in the UK alone each year.'

    Whose estimate Rollo?

    Would this estimation refer to pharmaceutical financed research, the results of which are cherry picked and disseminated by government funded smoking cessation groups.

    Why is it that the majority of anti smokers never concede, or even consider, that tobacco control has no other motives than the desire to improve public health?

    David

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  37. comments from Steve Hartwell, Toronto Canada, www.tobaccosmokersofcanada.ca

    The TICAP Conference was a fantastic achievement.

    May I offer my congratulations for all the efforts of everyone involved.

    However,

    I apologize to sound like a critic as usual, but, the one issue missing from the conference is the global news industry issue.

    That all news services around the world deliberately refuse to apply the Standards of Principles and Ethics to include tobacco smokes, and totally refuse to report anything we say in regards to second hand smoke NOT being a statistically significant health risk to others, which includes children too, nor that many scientists, researchers, even some doctors believe this, and do not believe the anti-smoking claims about second hand smoke.

    Last year I spearheaded an attempt in Canada, with the support of bunch of fellow activists, to get a small ad printed in a magazine for Journalists, politely asking them all to honour their Principles and Ethics regarding tobacco smokers and equally report what we have the right to say, about second hand smoke, and about being branded as murderers without due process of law, for the issue when they held their annual conference, last year in Toronto. The editor later told me in a phone conversation that he would have allowed it, but, that I had killed that chance because after the initial rejection, I
    appealed to the Board of Directors by email. I got their final decision from one of the publishing owners, that they had the right by law to print or not print whatever they chose, and they chose not to print the ad. The person also insinuated strongly that if I pursued that rejection as a violation of smokers' rights, they would defend themselves vigorously, and, if I knew what was good for me, I would remove all allegations of their wrong doing from my website, and cease all attacks against them.

    Followup attempts to garner support to do something about this, with editors, journalists, book authors, and several commissions, all perportedly staunch defenders of freedom of speech for everybody, regardless of subject matter, resulted in responses of "I believe in everybody's right to be heard, etc, but, sorry I cannot help you, good luck".

    The journalists' magazine's editor expressed that many like him see a growing concern, angst, even fear, that this sort of suppression of targeted people, and groups, is a very real wide-spread policy eating away democratic societies, all nations, around the world.

    How many people of the public are aware that the former editor of the BMJ, Richard Smith, and his supporters, and those of other medical journals, all got fired some years ago for trying to warn the public that at least 50 % to as much as 80 % of all medical studies are junk science-for-a-buck paid for by pharmaceutical and other companies, and people of very bad political agendae.

    Global Warming is a similar situation, where over 650 scientists have declared that Global Warming is NOT caused by human activities, and yet the news industry never reports that information, let alone on an equal basis with the claims that we do cause it.

    As used to be pointed out by our side, which then backfired upon us for doing it, what is happening today is almost a carbon copy of how the National Socialists (Nazis) rose to power over 70 years ago.

    And it all started in the 'news' industry.

    Today's news industry is owned and controlled by a very small group of very rich families, corporations, individuals, who hold similar views of society as did the National Socialists back then.

    There can be no doubt that they are deliberately Re-Engineering Global Society in to what they believe it should be.

    Aside from the aspect that most people choose to believe the Big Lie about Second Hand Smoke for basically three reasons, 1/ many want to quit smoking and want to eradicate all temptations to smoke 2/ most want to remain as 'members of their herds' and not be ostracized for smoking 3/ there is so much in this world to be afraid of that we cannot do anything about, and people have been given 'permission' to hate tobacco and tobacco smokers, and thereby have a target to vent their fears of everything against

    the successes of Anti-smoking would never have happened if not for the news industry.

    I apologize to say this, but, all the alternative 'news service' disseminating efforts are, and will forever be, entirely in vain.

    The primary key to the success of anti-smoking is the mainstream global news industry,

    and the key to defeating anti-smoking is also

    the global news industry.

    Find a way to force the global news industry to equally report our side of the story,

    and anti-smoking will die.

    That's my two cents worth.

    Steve Hartwell
    Toronto, Canada
    www.tobaccosmokersofcanada.ca

    ReplyDelete
  38. steve hartwell cont'd

    but, that I had killed that chance because after the initial rejection, I appealed to the Board of Directors by email. I got their final decision from one of the publishing owners, that they had the right by law to print or not print whatever they chose, and they chose not to print the ad. The person also insinuated strongly that if I pursued that rejection as a violation of smokers' rights, they would defend themselves vigorously, and, if I knew what was good for me, I would remove all allegations of their wrong doing from my website, and cease all attacks against them.

    Followup attempts to garner support to do something about this, with editors, journalists, book authors, and several commissions, all perportedly staunch defenders of freedom of speech for everybody, regardless of subject matter, resulted in responses of "I believe in everybody's right to be heard, etc, but, sorry I cannot help you, good luck".

    The journalists' magazine's editor expressed that many like him see a growing concern, angst, even fear, that this sort of suppression of targeted people, and groups, is a very real wide-spread policy eating away democratic societies, all nations, around the world.

    ReplyDelete
  39. steve hartwell cont'd (3)

    How many people of the public are aware that the former editor of the BMJ, Richard Smith, and his supporters, and those of other medical journals, all got fired some years ago for trying to warn the public that at least 50 % to as much as 80 % of all medical studies are junk science-for-a-buck paid for by pharmaceutical and other companies, and people of very bad political agendae.

    Global Warming is a similar situation, where over 650 scientists have declared that Global Warming is NOT caused by human activities, and yet the news industry never reports that information, let alone on an equal basis with the claims that we do cause it.

    As used to be pointed out by our side, which then backfired upon us for doing it, what is happening today is almost a carbon copy of how the National Socialists (Nazis) rose to power over 70 years ago.

    And it all started in the 'news' industry.

    Today's news industry is owned and controlled by a very small group of very rich families, corporations, individuals, who hold similar views of society as did the National Socialists back then.

    There can be no doubt that they are deliberately Re-Engineering Global Society in to what they believe it should be.

    ReplyDelete
  40. steve hartwell cont'd (4 - last )

    Aside from the aspect that most people choose to believe the Big Lie about Second Hand Smoke for basically three reasons, 1/ many want to quit smoking and want to eradicate all temptations to smoke 2/ most want to remain as 'members of their herds' and not be ostracized for smoking 3/ there is so much in this world to be afraid of that we cannot do anything about, and people have been given 'permission' to hate tobacco and tobacco smokers, and thereby have a target to vent their fears of everything against

    the successes of Anti-smoking would never have happened if not for the news industry.

    I apologize to say this, but, all the alternative 'news service' disseminating efforts are, and will forever be, entirely in vain.

    The primary key to the success of anti-smoking is the mainstream global news industry,

    and the key to defeating anti-smoking is also

    the global news industry.

    Find a way to force the global news industry to equally report our side of the story,

    and anti-smoking will die.

    That's my two cents worth.

    Steve Hartwell
    Toronto, Canada
    www.tobaccosmokersofcanada.ca

    ReplyDelete
  41. Thank-you Steve Hartwell (and Dick for supplying this blog)

    The message is now out for millions to see. The global industry of anti-smoking is killing people - millions worldwide.

    I don't know when the press will wake up to it, but they will catch up, eventually.

    The truth is emerging to the masses - many knew already but were too alone in what they knew to say anything.

    I'd just love to know the exact cost to the NHS of the ill-health caused by the smoking ban - rape, assault, murder, stress, social deprivation, social isolation, depression, starting smoking, etc. Not to mention the costs of implementing the ban and associated media campaign? What for? More people are smoking now in the UK - a direct reversal of all previous pre-ban trends.

    Has the smoking ban been successful - an absolute NO.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Forgot to add:
    Leading up to a recession is not really a sensible time to introduce a nicotine war.

    Any sensible government should know that.

    The pharma companies are responsible for most of the deaths in the developed world - many people know this. I have no respect whatsoever for Pharmacuetical companies who willingly (and knowingly) slaughter our innocent for their profit.

    ReplyDelete
  43. An article about this conference has appeared

    in the Sunday Express newspaper

    (1st Feb 2009 - Page 26 ) in England.

    The headline is " Applaud smokers' fightback

    against state prohibition"

    It does not appear in the Scottish edition

    of the paper. WHY?

    Eddie Douthwaite

    ReplyDelete
  44. This comment has been removed by the author.

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